Chris Smalls: 0:37

Don't quit your jobs anymore. Organize them. Form unions, join a union, form worker collectives, mutual aid, nonprofits—whatever you can to fight back against the oppression that we all experience.

Rumneek Johal: 1:03

Hi, I'm Rumeek Johal, and I'm your host for today. This is Sources by PressProgress, the show where we talk to newsmakers and subject matter experts to go more in depth about the stories we cover. Sources is a proud member of The Harbinger Media Network. I am very excited because I got to speak with a very important and cool guest for today's episode. Chris Smalls is the president of the Amazon Labor Union, the first Amazon union in American history. Before he was fired from Amazon in 2020, Smalls was a worker at their Staten Island packing facility. Since the union's historic win, many have called Smalls the face of America's new labour movement, which Smalls is leading in his signature sunglasses, and gold chains. Or as he calls it, his "union drip". Smalls believes in fighting for all workers and empowering them to fight for their rights, particularly young racialized workers who he says are part of the 'new school of labour'. Smalls has testified before Congress and had meetings with Vice President Kamala Harris and President Joe Biden to discuss workers legal rights to bargain. And now arguably equally as exciting, he is here to chat with me about his journey and share wisdom and lessons to paving the way forward for workers, even in the face of what looks and feels like an impossible fight. Okay, okay. Well, hello, nice to meet you, Chris. I'm really excited to be doing this interview right now.

Chris Smalls: 2:33

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Rumneek Johal: 2:34

You are somebody who doesn't need an introduction. But I'm going to ask you for one anyways, tell us who you are, in your own words for those who are listening to the podcast and maybe you don't know who you are?

Chris Smalls: 2:44

Sure, yeah. My name is Chris Smalls, former Amazon employee. I worked at Amazon for nearly five years, I was a supervisor there for four and a half years. I was terminated when I spoke up about COVID-19 in 2020. And from that moment forward, that's when I founded the organization, the Congress of Essential Workers that continued to advocate for workers' rights for about a year. In April of 2021, that's when we founded the Amazon Labor Union. Last year, we voted to become the first union in American history. So currently, right now, I'm the Interim President on the Amazon Labor Union.

Rumneek Johal: 3:22

Amazing, amazing. And so you kind of gave us a little bit of background context. And so you were also fired for protesting unsafe working conditions. And obviously, there were a number of factors that led to you choosing to take on this fight. But what was kind of the final straw for you in terms of you realizing, "this is something I have to take on"?

Chris Smalls: 3:42

Yeah, it was definitely when Amazon spent millions of dollars stopping a campaign in Alabama, Bessemer, when I'd seen how they treated the workers with the captive audiences, and the union busting and pretty much the breaking of the law, you know, firing and retaliating. And still not even listening to workers about COVID, because it was still the height of the pandemic. It couldn't be a better time for me, you know, being fired, and not having—nothing to do, really—but advocate and fight back. So for me, I felt that opportunity, to come back with my colleagues and form this union, something that's going to put workers in the driver's seat—the timing, it was necessary. And yeah, that motivated me, the union busting that Amazon did in that campaign, to form our union in April of last year.

Rumneek Johal: 4:40

And so you've spoken also about how you wanted to apply to be a manager and you tried to get that position multiple times over while working there. Can you talk a little bit about kind of some of the challenges in terms of—because I know there's a lot of job turnover at Amazon and a bunch of these issues that could be remedied with you know, unionizing and having that kind of protection—what was that like for you in terms of being a hard worker, doing your job every day day in and day out, and still not being able to kind of have any kind of movement in the company?

Chris Smalls: 5:07

The real reason why I was tapped out mentally, before COVID, you know I was done with Amazon, I wanted to resign because I have applied to be a manager nearly fifty times. And being a part of that machine for years and not moving up in the company not really being recognized for the hard work and opening up three buildings for this company. I felt that there was a systemic—system, an issue, that didn't include Black and Brown workers. And unfortunately, it took me four and a half years to realize that as a supervisor, but the pandemic was icing on the cake for sure. Life or death situation. And they're telling me as a supervisor not to tell other workers that, you know, workers are coming in and they're positive. I couldn't stand with that. So a combination of all these things was the real reason why I decided to do what I do. And unfortunately, it cost me my job, but I hope to have saved other people's lives because I spoke up about something that was life or death.

Rumneek Johal: 6:17

Yeah, and I watched a previous speaking engagement of yours, where you were talking about the importance of organizing in the open, as opposed to organizing in secret and in your kind of efforts to really like, show solidarity, but also ask for solidarity from your workers. Can you talk a little bit about that tactic in terms of the circumstances that led to that and how and why it worked?

Chris Smalls: 6:37

Right, you know, when you're dealing with Amazon, and these corporations now, you know, they have millions of dollars to spend on propaganda, controlling the market, commercials, you name it, they could do it all. We don't have that as workers. And, you know, we have to create our own propaganda. And our own methods of organizing are now starting to adapt to the 21st century style, which, meaning, we use social media, we use TikTok, we'll use Instagram, we use Twitter. We use all of these tools that we have to amplify our efforts, along with the creativity of organizing on the ground. What you've seen with our campaign was workers being militant in a different fashion, you know, wearing the, the ALU shirt inside of the building, serving food inside the break rooms—showing the workers, leading by example, that there's nothing to be afraid of if we all come together. They can't divide us if we all stay united. And when you're organizing in secrecy, they retaliate against you, and nobody knows about it. You know, that doesn't do any good. So being outspoken is actually a way of protection. And we realized that with the media attention, and the way our campaign ended up shaping, that we were actually protecting workers because if Amazon fired them it would look bad for their PR, which they, we all know, they care about the most.

Rumneek Johal: 8:05

Yeah, so speaking of Amazon PR, there's a now infamous memo from the Amazon General Counsel, I know you've spoken about this at length, where they were told the directive was to make you the most interesting part of the story. And clearly, that backfired, but they really tried to paint you in a certain light. How did you kind of use that to your advantage. And also, I think, to me, what's interesting is that you never switched up in terms of trying to make yourself palatable to the movement, you knew that the movement was, in terms of just who you were. So talk a little bit about that, and kind of why that was important to you to do so in the face of what they were trying to do.

Chris Smalls: 8:37

Yeah, it was definitely important. Because, you know, I say this all the time, they just didn't know who I was, and what I contributed to the company. They just thought that I was, you know, entry level worker that obviously wasn't articulate, or smart enough to even have these type of conversations—not knowing that I was a supervisor who trained thousands of their workers, and a lot of the general managers who actually came in at low level management and had to work underneath me to learn the job. So they didn't know who I was. And when those statements came out, of course, stigma in the Black community saying that we're not smart or articulate. And when they said to also make me the face of the whole unionizing efforts, you know, I definitely wanted to make them, and remind them that, you know, this is not going to continue to happen. And, you know, I had nothing else to do, you know, I was fired in the middle of the pandemic, I lost everything, lost my income, I lost my health insurance. So it's really about what do you do when you lose everything. And I made the decision that I'm going to continue to fight, and make sure that what happened to me doesn't happen to somebody else. And that's the bigger picture. You know, I wasn't thinking about forming a union. I wasn't thinking about being an organizer, or even the president of a union or any of these things at the moment. But just learning and hearing about the different stories and workers reaching out from all over the world. I knew that this fight was bigger than myself, and that's why we're here today.

Rumneek Johal: 10:15

Yeah, and on that note, though, I think it is important to emphasize that this movement was Black-led, and I think in a lot of labour spaces, sometimes they can be pretty White. And I think that seeing you leading that is really cool. And considering the fact that you've spoken about there was Black and Brown workers in that facility, those are the people that are working, and maybe they wouldn't have felt comfortable or maybe wouldn't have felt their values or their things are being reflected in the leadership. But then they see you, and they maybe feel that there is somebody who cares about what they're experiencing. So what's your take on being the one to lead the charge and the significance of that, and having a Black man specifically leading that charge?

Chris Smalls: 10:54

I'm so glad you brought that up. Because, you know, I don't get asked that a lot. And that's what people tend to forget about the, our victory is that, you know, at the beginning of this, I lost my job. And not just myself, another Black man lost his job, Joe Bryson. And another Black man was retaliated immediately, you know, and still continues to be picked on in the building, or targeted. So, at the beginning of these movements are Black, Brown, or Indigenous people. And our identity is everything, you know, representation, even within labour is not really there, and not where it needs to be. And most times, you know, our voices somehow always get buried, our, the narrative seems to change. And even when I went to the White House, you know, I told them, I have to come as is, I'm not coming if I have to put on what you guys want me to put on, because that's not who I am. And that's not who I represent. And that's what's important, the most, is our identity, which is everything and representation. Looking like a New Yorker, dressing like a New Yorker, working in warehouses, you know, we don't wear a suit and ties we don't, you know, we're not unskilled labourers. We are very skilled, we are articulate, we can do it all. If you teach us and train us, we're very trainable. And we're, you know, we're people that come from our community. And you know, that representation is everything to the union. And this is why the union that we formed, comes from all different backgrounds, you know, everybody came together, knowing that this fight is also bigger than themselves. And this is why we're here today with this type of morale of having cultures, backgrounds, from all over the country, all over the world, inspired by the way we came together to defeat Amazon.

Unknown: 12:59

Yeah.

Rumneek Johal: 12:59

And so you talk about use the term 'new school of labour', which I like. So tell us what is the new school of labour, and how can we empower workers here in Canada to kind of fight for better working conditions and use this as a starting point?

Chris Smalls: 13:12

Well, for one, our birthday is 4/20, [laughs]. So we're different, we're just different in so many different ways. With our campaign, which I can't even put into words, because I really want you guys to wait until the doc' comes out. But I'll tell you, what we did was we created a culture that Amazon just had never seen or dealt with before. And like I mentioned earlier, didn't matter how much money—millions trillions of dollars they're worth, or they have, you cannot calculate the power of people when they come together. You cannot calculate love, or caring about somebody. Because that's free, you know. Me listening to anybody come off of work, and have a hard day just from working 10 hours, 12 hours—being a shoulder to lean on. There's been moments at our camp fires where, you know, people will bring guitars, sing music, we have prayer, we have visuals, we have barbecues, we have so many different events that resonated with the workers. You cannot calculate that with numbers and metrics. And that's something Amazon does. They didn't care about us, they still don't care about us. We're nothing but a number to them. And we show that we actually have a community, a safe space and a culture within unionizing, and bringing people together, that's going to improve our quality of life. And that's really what it's all about.

Rumneek Johal: 14:40

Yeah. And I think my favorite line that you said during your talk at the Progress Summit was, you didn't realize you could be as cool as a rapper as a union organizer. I think that was a bar if I've ever heard one. I know we're running short on time. So maybe I'll ask you one last question, if that's okay. I guess in terms of advice moving forward, I know there is a lot of momentum here. But you have talked about how this isn't a partisan issue. This isn't, in America, right or left, it isn't really an issue like that. It is a workers' issue. So can you talk about how we can try to get workers on board with this and seeing it as that kind of an issue?

Chris Smalls: 15:12

Well, workers have to realize their value now, you know, the pandemic should have definitely proven that. And, you know, we weren't getting enough before the pandemic. So now, how can we go backwards? And you know, when we're talking about workers rights, and education about the real labour history—that doesn't get taught to us. So, labour leaders have to step up, unions have to step up. Our victories are definitely monumental, but we all know that the companies, corporations, billionaires—is also mobilizing. So we have to mobilize now and for workers, you know, like I said earlier as well, don't quit your jobs anymore, organize them. You know, form unions, join a union, form worker collectives, mutual aid, nonprofits—whatever you can to fight back against the oppression that we all experience. And the time is now for that, you know, we don't have much time. And if we continue to let these billionaires play in space, we won't have a planet. So, you know, this is where we at right now in if you have children, are planning to have children, you know, we want to make a society that they don't have to go through the struggles that we're going through now.

Rumneek Johal: 16:37

Thank you so much, Chris. This is honestly a great interview. I think that there's so much that people can take away from this conversation, and I'm really grateful to you for sharing your time.

Chris Smalls: 16:45

Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Rumneek Johal: 16:48

That was Chris smalls, president of the Amazon Labor Union, who led the charge in creating the first Amazon union in US history. I really enjoyed that conversation. Chris has made it clear in all of his public and media appearances, that his most important goal is creating a 'workers first' mentality and helping everyday workers like him and his colleagues at the Amazon warehouse, learn and fight for their rights. He's also been extremely intentional to demonstrate how unions are not a partisan issue. They're a workers issue, and there is so much more that can be done if workers stick together. And it's also important to note that this charge towards a 'new school of labor' is being led by a Black working-class man. Thanks for listening to today's episode. Sources by PressProgress is edited by Eric Wickham. You can follow our work at pressprogress.ca And be sure to subscribe to our show with the link in the show description. Also, be sure to sign up for our national labour newsletter, Shift Work, for weekly updates on the latest labour news. I was today's host, Rumneek Johal. Thanks for joining us. We'll catch you next time.